щас спать...

[strega verde]

опять стишки, вы проматывайте
Sleep already stupid angel
Don't you know I'm here to stay
Don't you know there is no danger
You could save me from today
Not today and not tomorrow
Not until the day I die
Don't you know there is no sorrow
No pain to make you cry
Cry for me as if I mattered
Cry for me as if lived -
Broken, mended, shattered, battered
Hardly worthy of your grief

@темы: стехи, дыбр

Comments

[vija]

Ого!

Никакая боль не заставить тебя кричать
обо мне, как будто я имел значение
кричать обо мне, как будто жил?

*в голову приходит: "Не спрашивай, по ком бьёт колокол"*

[strega verde]

я скорее имела в виду - плакать по мне. Хотя оно открыто для толкований, потому поток сознания)) Интересная ассоциация, Don't ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you...

[vija]

strega verde, да, "плакать по мне" сюда больше подходит

Что такое "mended"? Словарь выдаёт "исправленный", но это же не в тему.

[Emily Waters]

(тихонько-шепотом-с-опасочкой): it's a Snarry!!!!

[strega verde]

vija
мнэээ... Тьфу, мне о стихах по-русски даже думать тяжело, во бред))) Mended это противоположность broken - починеннный, склеенный, вновь собранный из кусочков и т.д. Ну то есть мне так кажется)) Вот у Эмили классная интерпретация всего стиха!

emilywaters1976

it's a Snarry!!!!

OMG, it is! Чистой воды причем, классический такой снарри))) Just like you said, I am channeling Snape))) Doctor, will I live?

[vija]

strega verde, а-а... понятно)))

[Emily Waters]

Doctor, will I live?

Absolutely, says the doctor, just like Snape lives - in fanfiction!

[Emily Waters]

Интересная ассоциация, Don't ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you...

Interesting - I had the same association before looking at the comments. I think it has sort of like the same theme - grieving for oneself, one's own mortality - even if it's expressed as something else.

[strega verde]

emilywaters1976
Absolutely, says the doctor, just like Snape lives - in fanfiction!
I'm practically immortal, then

Speaking of which - yes, I guess that's what it really was about, mortality, though I didn't see it like that when I was writing it. (опять о своем, с редкостным занудством: ну и как вот можно переводить, скажем, стихи, когда человек, который их написал, сам не понимает, о чем это он )

[vija]

Сорри, что вклиниваюсь) не могла пройти мимо этого:

как вот можно переводить, скажем, стихи, когда человек, который их написал, сам не понимает, о чем это он

За него поймут другие)) проверено временем)

[strega verde]

vija
вклинивайся, пожалуйста! я тебе ужасно рада!

За него поймут другие)) проверено временем)

Это хорошо. Буду рассчитывать на толкования))
Собственно, это не только к стихам относится, но и к любому творчеству творческому акту, наверное.

[vija]

strega verde,

О, трактовка - это целое приключение!

[Emily Waters]

Speaking of which - yes, I guess that's what it really was about, mortality, though I didn't see it like that when I was writing it. (опять о своем, с редкостным занудством: ну и как вот можно переводить, скажем, стихи, когда человек, который их написал, сам не понимает, о чем это он )

Отвечаю еще более занудно:

So it's layered, that's what; cuz I think when you were writing it it was really about something else - about human frailty (brokenness, feeling of unworthiness, a person feeling like nobody cares DEEPLY even if they go through the helpful motions, feeling like ultimately your life didn't matter to others - and therefore, feeling disconnected from the closest people. (like you know, you said, the ultimate Snarry )

So anyway, Donne has the same themes - there's the issue of human connectedness
(No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.)

Yours is a human who is longing for connectedness, but not able to achieve it - or believe it - so there's a sense of loss/grief there; Donne's human knows he's connected, but he's still watching those connections disintegrate with death - and feel their loss and mourn.

Donne's man says,
"Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind

Your human says, "cry for me as if I lived" - that brings forth a theme of death and sounds close to: "My death - when it happens - won't diminish you because 1) You aren't involved with me on the level that I need for it to be meaningful and 2) my life /my person have lost meaning because of my choices/experiences/people fucking about with me"; but of course even expressing that sentimnt has this note of longing for that ultimate human connectedness.

Donne ends his poem by saying
"send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee." - so basically he's saying that "we're all the same: mortal, fragile, valuable, but sharing the same destiny." - he is in solidarity with humankind.

Your man says, "I'm intrinsically different from you; my experiences/chocies have made me less, therefore we'll never have a strong connection where we can identify with each other and be in solidarity with each other." -

Donne's man is grieving the death of flesh but celebrating the basic human identity of all people, your man is grieving the death of spirit/self - loss of his humanity, in a way....

Say does this interpretation work?

AS for writer not knowing wtf they are writing, well - it's like that in prose too... you write something and realize that this has a deeper or bigger meaning that leaks into it from your subconscious and the readers spot it even when you don't necessarily think along those lines...

[strega verde]

emilywaters1976
wow. I'm overwhelmed. I guess now I know how Bob feels when he reads (if he ever does) critical analysis of his songs Seriously though, thank you - it's brilliant.

Say does this interpretation work?
It works perfectly, it does.

So yes, both Donne's poem and this thing of mine are about the same thing, the loss of humanity, only Donne talks about the losses humanity suffers as a kind, and me - I'm concerned with the loss of one's humanity on a personal level. Either way, it means death and disconnection. Um. I guess.

you write something and realize that this has a deeper or bigger meaning that leaks into it from your subconscious and the readers spot it even when you don't necessarily think along those lines...

oh yes. I guess that's one of the things that make writing so interesting

[Emily Waters]

strega verde

Donne talks about the losses humanity suffers as a kind, and me - I'm concerned with the loss of one's humanity on a personal level.

ah, hm-yes and interesting how yours is more depressing, while Donne's is more hopeful... well to me anyway.... somehow the "oh well, everyone dies, we are all losing equally" (за компанию можно сделать все что угодно) is to me less depressing than the ultimate Snarry angst - of the "look at ME!!!! I'm DYING here (metaphorically)!!!" variety.

Just tell me when you want me to shut up

[strega verde]

emilywaters1976

uh-huh. Seems to me, in Donne's time angst hadn't been invented yet No, really, back then people just weren't that obsessed with the personal, partly I guess because God used to keep them company so probably they didn't feel that lonesome.

Just tell me when you want me to shut up

NEVER!

[Emily Waters]

Seems to me, in Donne's time angst hadn't been invented yet

I think you might be right! I instantly thought back to the bible, because you know, my immediate thought was, wtf, the Jews can do angst!!! But - er, maybe not.

Book of Job isn't angst - it's kind of a cosmic tragedy with elements of tragicomedy I think - where everything works out in the end.

The criy of Jesus from the cross, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani" isn't angst as such... like honestly -- it's something else. Because it imbued with purpose, at least from the writer's perspective.

I think the closest to angst in its pure form in the ancient literature would probably be some of the psalms of David "But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people." - but even that isn't angst as such - the writer is still raging agasint the whole situation and there's that underlying thought of "1 - I don't deserve this, dammit, and 2 - This really sucks ass, but it won't last, I just know it."

I'm guessing that angst as a form of art is a product of modern and post-modern world? Like the whole alienation of humans from each other as life becomes more and more mechanized and automated, the whole thing where we've mourned and buried religion as we knew it - (as a society at least), and really, human suffering acquires a whole new meaning these days. it's no longer the "I'm a good person, why is this shit happening to me?" scream of the ancients, and it's no longer the "I'm a sinner, and I'm paying for my transgressions, and once i'm done paying, and redeem myself, things will start looking up again" cry of the medieval times; now it's just... just angst. Where suffering has this layer of desparation where one's suffering/actions/experiences don't really matter in the grand scheme of things, nor to the people close to us, because we're too disconnected - because we are lost to each other - and because life is more complex than the ancients ever imagined and we don't quite know what to do with that complexity, and what we do doesn't matter , really - the Unbearable Lightness of Being motif maybe...

NOW SEE WHAT YOUR POEM IS DOING TO ME !!!

[strega verde]

emilywaters1976

the Jews can do angst!!! But - er, maybe not.
oh yes, they can. At least those who happened to be born in the XXth century:

<...>в отличие от животных инстинкты не диктуют человеку, что ему нужно, и в отличие от человека вчерашнего дня традиции не диктуют сегодняшнему человеку, что ему должно. Не зная ни того, что ему нужно, ни того, что он должен, человек, похоже, утратил ясное представление о том, чего же он хочет. В итоге он либо хочет того же, чего и другие (конформизм), либо делает то, что другие хотят от него (тоталитаризм). - Виктор Франкл (feels like the angst we're talking about, right? Like the lack of the divine presence etc., right? )

And one more:
<...>it looks like freedom but it feels like death
it's something in between I guess -
it's closing time
closing time
- Leonard Cohen

NOW SEE WHAT YOUR POEM IS DOING TO ME !!

(мстительно: oh good. Now you know what your fic has done to me!!!)

[strega verde]

vija
О, трактовка - это целое приключение!
Да, ты только посмотри куда нас завело Чисто по Толкиену

[strega verde]

emilywaters1976
er, what I actually meant to say in the previous post is that yes, I think you're right - angst is all about this existential trap when this sort of ultimate freedom is just too much to handle...